Matt
Admin
Admin
| Posts: 485 |  |
|
LSPR - 2005/10/12 09:42
Preperations for LSPR are well underway. Dannii cam back from the body shop Tuesday morning, and in that same day Phil dropped in her engine, and her drive line went up.
I have to admit, I'm a little overwhelmed, not so much with the work, there isn't all that much I have to do, unlike Maine this year, where I was swamped.
I've been looking into the 2006 Season, and what I want to accomplish. Well, what I want to accomplish is pretty obvious. Win. But more importantly, there is a certain level of legitimacy that I feel the sport needs, but lacks. That comes from the ability to make a living at it. I've always been a big fan of the Ayn Rand idea that if you're not making money, you're not bringing value into the world. Ayn Rand's charecters are pretty tough to emulate, not that I think it's not a worthy direction, just a very difficul one.
Anyway, sometimes i think it's illuminating to look at the cost benifit of the sport of Rally. I know how much I spend during my season. If I can't find sponsorship, or income, in that amount or more, than what I'm doing isn't creating value. Don't get me wrong, I love Rallying, And that's why I'm still doing it. But besides a core of dedicated fans, the sport hasn't gained much traction in the US yet. If the sport isn't making money, than part of me will always feel like it itn't legit. Like it's running on the driver's will, and not on reality. So now we get back to why I feel overwhelmed. it's not because I don't want to keep rallying, rather it's because I see the sport as bleeding.
I feel like my job is to not only keep myself in the sport, which isn't too hard, but rather make the sport profitable. That's pretty formitable. An'd unlike the charecters in Ayn Rands novel, i haven't been born with supernatural moneymaking powers. Actually I'm a pretty crappy salesman. That's one of the reasons I've had to work so hard at getting good at everything else .
Well, I apolligize of everyone who wahted a quick update bout the cars in this post. The're in rough shape, but I'll be driving Dannii for sure. I know what I have to do to get that done. Now I'm up agains a problem that I only have the faintest of clues where to begin. And in the hesitation, worry smothers me like a fat dominatrix.
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
ryanrlamothe
Moderator
Moderator
| Posts: 221 |  |
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/12 11:54
I 100% completely and wholly disagree with Ayn Rand.
Most of the people who have ever shaped this world never asked for a single dime of profit in return. These people include Ph.D/professors/teachers, researchers, volunteers, social/political revolutionist, philosophers, etc. etc. The greatest contribution you can give to the world is your time, energy, and talent. Whether you make a profit from it or not, and what the definition of profit is to you, is completely up to you. For example, it always pisses me off when I donate clothes to Goodwill or money from my paycheck to charity and I get asked if I would like a tax deduction form for my contribution. What is that? If someone has to get a reward for donating to a charity, then those people were worthless to begin with. I could go on, but I think you get the idea. Again, my point is that I am absolutely not against anyone wanting to make a profit in life, but a person's value and worth is not a summation of their money.
On to Rally America and NASA. Honestly, and I have absolutely nothing against Rally America or NASA, but it appears as if Rally America and NASA couldn't advertise or promote Rally even if they were in a monkey whore house with a sack of bananas. There are a few main problems with Rally in the US that I have seen personally or have heard from other Rallyists in general:
1) Rallyists. Unfortunately, there are some Rally people who do not want Rally to become popular in the US. This is because they like the 'exclusivity' of the sport so that only they can play and enjoy it. They don't want anyone else to get involved, because too many people will ruin the small size of the sport for them.
2) Insurance. There is a massive majority of 'victim society' people in the US. In the US, nothing is anyone's fault, it is always someone else's fault. If a Rally car where to somehow injure a spectator, the lawyers in the US would shut down the sport. It is sad and pathetic but true. Unless Billy Bob and Bobby Sue can be safe sitting down in a caged-in grand stand drinking cheap beer and watching rednecks driving around in circles all day, Rally is going to have a tough chance of being big in the US.
3) Ignorance and laziness. There are only a handful of Americans who know that the Earth exists outside of the US. Give someone a blank map and ask them to name all 50 states. Forget about state capitals. Then ask them where Canada and Mexico are. Only a small percentage of them will get any of it right. And all of those places are on this continent. Now try asking someone what Rally is and you only get blank stares. I have spent hours and hours of time explaining Rally to people. And almost everyone gets excited about it. Then they ask what channel they can watch it on. To which I tell them, now recently, OLN. Unfortunately, most people do not get OLN. And on top of that, SPEED channel has turned into the 23.5 hour a day NASCAR channel with 0.5 hour dedicated to whatever else is slotted at 4:00AM. And for most people it is too much to have to drive to see a Rally.
4) Costs. While Rally is small in the US, costs will remain low. Once Rally becomes large, costs will rise, at least at the highest level. Too many people racing are already racing on huge credit limits. Just the tiny increases in ClubRally costs from Rally America this year have wiped out a majority of competitors who have been regulars from previous years. How can the sport gain popularity without raising costs?
5) Environmentalists. Hey, I'm an environmentalist, but I am a realist at the same time. Too many people are hypocrites. Some people try to stop Rally's from getting licensing due to 'environmental damage' concerns, while they drive around in resource wasting gas guzzling SUV's with "Save Mother Earth" stickers on the bumpers. Give me a break. And people at some northern Rally's have come to Marshall Points bitching about how they don't want the ruts in the forest roads, because it makes it harder to hunt bear. Sure buddy. The ruts are so bad that what, your brand new Ford F250 Super-Duty you drove to the Marshal Point can't make it into the woods so you can kill some animals? Or have you just had too much to drink and have nothing better better to do than to try and cause trouble?
6) Advertising. When is the last time you saw a TV ad, newspaper ad, opinion piece, radio show, or anything related to Rally in the US? Same for me.
7) Ignorance Part 2. Whenever you ask someone who owns, works for, or is randomly standing around why GM, Ford, and Chrysler do not make an AWD turbocharged car they always answer "because there is no market for it". To which I reply "so why hasn't Subaru gone out of business?". To which they reply something like "that's a good point". Honestly, if you look at GM and Ford, besides the boring, cheap, uninspired crap they produce and sell to ignorant consumers, they simply do not want to tap into a multi-billion dollar performance car market. Why not? Who the hell knows. And for the sport of Rally, with only Subaru really holding the reins in North America and no other major manufacturer contributing, the future of the sport is in an interesting position. The sport cannot grow beyond its current level if the only future entrants are VW, Honda, and <insert normally aspirated 2000cc front wheel drive car here>, because quite honestly they are boring as hell to watch.
Post edited by: ryanrlamothe, at: 2005/10/12 13:39
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Matthew Wallace Iorio
Visitor
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/12 14:44
Ryan,
I agree with practically everything you said. Unfortunatly I am not in a position to simply admit the faults of Rally and go on like nothing can be done. I don't think that's the conclusion you were drawing at ether.
If The sanctioning bodies can't promote, than it falls on my sholders.
There are obstuctionist rallyiers, but they prettymuch fall over their own feet, and don't obstruct much of anything.
Insurance is an issue, but That's just a risk rally drivers take. I'm not sure how a spectator fatality would pan out. It has happenend before, and not shut down the sport.
Saying people are ignorant and lazy, and that's why they don't like the sport is like saying people like vitimin injections in their ass, but are too lazy and ignorant to know it. it's the fault of the company that makes the vitimin injection that the product fails. People dont buy because they done want. If you have a product the people want, than they will buy.
Keeping the cost down for club rallyist isn't really my concern. I'd like to see rally spending caps around $650,000.00. I dont spend nearly that much now. But that's the number it should take to run a 15 event season as it should be run, without the fat (pork whatever you want to call it). If the local club guy can't scrounge up 4,000.00 to buy a car and run one event, I can't help him. Not to sound mean, but it takes money to play.
I'm not sure what enviormental impact rally has, but the cars run very clean emissions, and the sport promotes the maintainance of the roads it uses. Cars undergo Tech to make sure thay are not leaking the fluid your neibor's 92 camery does.
Advertising goes back to the first point. I can't sit and wait for the sanctioning bodies to lead the way. And ignorance is only bacause I haven't caught people's eyes yet.
The bottom line is that I have to have a product that people want. I have to make the spectacle at races exciting enough that people watch, and want to see more. Racing is both a means of advertising, and a means of entertainment.
I don't think how much money you have is any indication of the quality of a person. Making tons of money doesn't make a man either. Losing tons of money is a sure fire indication of a unsustainable lifestyle, and that's where I'm at. Rally is what I want to do, I want it to be my job, not just a hobby. A 365, 24-7 hobby. Making money is a pretty unfufilling end, but as a means to what you want to do, it's pretty unavoidable. Ryan, we were talking about dreams earlier. This is my dream, this is what I want to do. Now I have to find a way to do it, QED (not quite the right use but how many times do you get to use QED?) I have to make money. Giving up, or blaming people won't get me there. I think that's what Rand was getting at.
Nothing will get me there except taking steps in that direction. But, the thoulght of failure leaves me feeling a little nausaus.
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
ryanrlamothe
Moderator
Moderator
| Posts: 221 | |
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/12 15:30
Matthew Wallace Iorio wrote:
Ryan,
I agree with practically everything you said. Unfortunatly I am not in a position to simply admit the faults of Rally and go on like nothing can be done. I don't think that's the conclusion you were drawing at ether.
You are correct, that was not the conclusion I was attempting to draw.
Saying people are ignorant and lazy, and that's why they don't like the sport is like saying people like vitimin injections in their ass, but are too lazy and ignorant to know it. it's the fault of the company that makes the vitimin injection that the product fails. People dont buy because they done want. If you have a product the people want, than they will buy.
Right, I could have worded my thoughts a little better on this subject. You are completely correct that it is the complete failure of the product marketing if it does not either create a want or a need for the product or address an already existing need or want.
Keeping the cost down for club rallyist isn't really my concern. I'd like to see rally spending caps around $650,000.00. I dont spend nearly that much now. But that's the number it should take to run a 15 event season as it should be run, without the fat (pork whatever you want to call it). If the local club guy can't scrounge up 4,000.00 to buy a car and run one event, I can't help him. Not to sound mean, but it takes money to play.
You are correct, you have to pay to play.
I'm not sure what enviormental impact rally has, but the cars run very clean emissions, and the sport promotes the maintainance of the roads it uses. Cars undergo Tech to make sure thay are not leaking the fluid your neibor's 92 camery does.
You are correct. Unfortunately, people do not seem to understand the concept of 'balance'. The amount of environmental impact a Rally car has is infinitesimally small compared to almost anything else. People don't consider whether the environmental impact would have other social or economic benefits. Or if that environmental impact could be repaired to a state equal to or better than its original state. Most people do not think that far into anything. There was a Rally on the East Coast that was designed as a one day Rally event because too many people were upset about driving through the state forests and the damage it would cause to the forest roads and trees.
Advertising goes back to the first point. I can't sit and wait for the sanctioning bodies to lead the way. And ignorance is only bacause I haven't caught people's eyes yet.
The bottom line is that I have to have a product that people want. I have to make the spectacle at races exciting enough that people watch, and want to see more. Racing is both a means of advertising, and a means of entertainment.
That's very true.
I don't think how much money you have is any indication of the quality of a person. Making tons of money doesn't make a man either. Losing tons of money is a sure fire indication of a unsustainable lifestyle, and that's where I'm at. Rally is what I want to do, I want it to be my job, not just a hobby. A 365, 24-7 hobby. Making money is a pretty unfufilling end, but as a means to what you want to do, it's pretty unavoidable. Ryan, we were talking about dreams earlier. This is my dream, this is what I want to do. Now I have to find a way to do it, QED (not quite the right use but how many times do you get to use QED?) I have to make money. Giving up, or blaming people won't get me there. I think that's what Rand was getting at.
Nothing will get me there except taking steps in that direction.
We completely agree on this. I appreciate your clarification of your thoughts on Rand.
It is many people's dream to live their lives doing what they love. The only way to make your dream happen is hard work, dedication, and sacrifice. It is said that success is %1 inspiration and %99 perspiration. If you could transform your passion for Rally into marketing material for sponsorships, I have no doubt you could easily fund your dreams of Rally racing.
And the occasional lottery ticket purchase would not hurt either.
But, the thoulght of failure leaves me feeling a little nausaus.
Which would leave you feeling more nauseous: Having tried to achieve your dreams and failing or having never tried your dreams at all?
Post edited by: ryanrlamothe, at: 2005/10/12 21:48
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Benjamin Klooster Slocum
Visitor
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/12 16:44
1) Rallyists. Unfortunately, there are some Rally people who do not want Rally to become popular...
Unfortunalty you'll find these people in almost anything you do. The only solution is that they should play at the level that they find best suits thier needs then. If they want it to stay small, then they should only run small local events with less of a chance to draw out the fans. By wanting and trying to keep the sport small they're being selfish (as opposed to wanting and trying to make it big, Growing is sharing).
2) Insurance...
Insurance is an issue that everyone will have to deal with no matter what they do. You're not responsible for your actions, someone else is responsible for what you do. Sadly it makes all the sense in the world to lawyers these days. One way to help deal with this issue is to have Uber strict marshells at events. I made alot of fans mad trying to keep them from pulling out a stray rex at Sno, but it needs to be done. If a marshell gets injured, or a competitor, well, we've been waivered, we should understand the risk when we sign for our wristband. It's our jobs as competitors and dedicated fans to make sure the passive fans stay safe to keep our sport safe, thus insurence lower.
3) Ignorance and laziness...
Unfortunatly this has become the American way. I have to give Rally-America credit with the format of the Sno*Drift episode for what they were doing. They didn't really show the race that much, but they did a pretty damn well job of explaining what rally is. True it can be seen as a dissapointment to the fans that know what the sport is, but the sports at the level where it needs to draw more fans.
4) Costs...
You have to pay to play. People who want to get into the sport need to realize this. I've got a plan to get involved in competing.
a. Work a few events- check
b. Work with a few teams- check
c. Co-drive an event or two (before a full comitment, who knows, maybe I'd rather be behind the scenes than in the car?)
d. Find a very competitive national team looking for a navvie
You have to find the level that best suits your needs once you are involved in the sport. If you can afford a full national series, then go for it. If you do the sport because you love it, and you want it to stay small, get a cheap solid RWD Grp5 car and run club events. You'll have more fun that AWD, less of a tow, and you won't have to fret about trying to win to apease sponsers to run a full national.
6) Advertising...
Advertising has been very poor for the sanctioning bodies. I live an hour west of Sno*Drift, and I didn't know it existed until last year. I've been going to school to get a degree in marketing, so I feel I can talk about this one with a little bit of knowledge (and hopefully someday I can be the marketing director for a team  Matt ). I've been talking a wee bit with Matt Johnston about this. It's up to the teams at this point to market themselves. We need to identify what the individual teams want to accomplish, who their target market is, and the best way to go about attracting them. For Matt Johnston I think his best market are the young do it yourself tuners. The best way to get to them, guirilla marketing. Bring your car where they are. Bring it to Honda meet and greets, bring it to the county fair, bring it to local auto classes. Don't just bring the car to most events, bring an event with you. Set up your car as if it were at service, up on jack stands, a few tires off, hood open so people can see what the cars about. Have a t.v. playing some footage from an event. Get the fans to follow your team, then they'll follow the sport.
7) Ignorance Part 2...
Now with Delphi I strongly believe we'll see GM fall from it's #1 position. The American market changed with the gas crunch of the 70's. The market started seeing small foreng cars sell. Now that we're going into another gas crunch we sould see the market adjust accordingly over the next few years. I think it comes to the theory of wanting to see what you drive, drive really fast. Where was I to see a Jetta, or a Z car go fast where I live? No where, thus I didn't go to races. Then I found out about Sno, and wow, my car's were there. I was hooked. Thats why teams should meet their cars fans, make them team fans, then let them know where they can watch them beat out the competition.
p.s. I'm still a dreamer. I just now realize I need it based in something before I go for it. I can't be a driver now, but I can be a navvie. I can't afford to rally, but I can get as close as I can as crew. I'm still a dreamer, but after I've seen my life change dramaticly in a few seconds, I've realized I need a better plan on how to get from a-e, even if steps b c and d change along the way.
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
BenSlocum
Moderator
Moderator
| Posts: 63 | |
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/12 16:48
If you want any more of those ideas, let me know, I've been knocking a few around in my head (I know, most things up there are scary, but it's alright Matt, not as scary as 80 into a blind corner with trees outside)
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
ryanrlamothe
Moderator
Moderator
| Posts: 221 | |
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/14 09:54
Benjamin Klooster Slocum wrote:
If you do the sport because you love it, and you want it to stay small, get a cheap solid RWD Grp5 car and run club events. You'll have more fun that AWD, less of a tow, and you won't have to fret about trying to win to apease sponsers to run a full national.
RWD? Either that's a joke or you've never driven an AWD car before. If you mean slow, no control and no chance of having traction in anything except straight lines in dry conditions, than we wholly and completely disagree. AWD takes everything that is fun about RWD and FWD and brings them together to a whole new level. AWD is absolutely fun as hell, and there is no way you will ever go back once you experience it. The people who bash AWD are either jealous, ignoring reality, have no idea what they are talking about or all three. Now, if you want to race on a budget, if you want to stand a chance of actually winning, if you want to remain fast and have a lot of control, but cannot afford to own an AWD car, then race an NA or FI FWD car. Doug Shepard shows what can be done with FWD when in the right hands.
And national sponsors, unless you are driving for Subaru, usually do not care what you are driving as long as you are winning and getting their name in the spotlight. The major benefits of racing a Subaru are that Subaru parts are readily available at both home and at the Rally as well as people experienced with Subaru's from around the world you can tap into for knowledge. And the Subaru contingency is nice, but it is nothing compared to what it costs to have a Rally team. Even the end of the year grand prize for GrpN is token. Here's $25000, which should nicely offset the $500000 you spent to win this year. And for second place, here is enough money to barely pay for a half a year's worth of tires. Like I said, it's nice, but not exactly enough to fret endlessly over whether you win or not. If we were talking millions of dollars, then there would be something to fret about.
Post edited by: ryanrlamothe, at: 2005/10/14 11:08
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
Benjamin Klooster Slocum
Visitor
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/14 13:18
AWD is definitly fun. FWD is fun if you do it right. RWD, now that's fun if all you plan on doing is having fun. I could get my 240 to rotate almost all the time (even straight, which was fun, if not what I had planned). Sure, slow as hell, but it was fun. If I were out for pure giggle factor, that's the way I'd go. Put the front in, a little more go peddle, and your throwing dirt at speccies. Granted, the most experience I have are with FWD and RWD, but when I was behind the wheel of a 2.5 for a bit I always felt like (and I've heard this from alot of other people to) it was less responsive than FWD, and alot harder to rotate than RWD. My only point of it is if your out for the sole fun factor, than just get a very cheap car, that will give you the most Giggles per $$. If you are out trying to make a business from it, or get as much sponsership as you can, then you'd pretty much be looking for AWD. Sure I'd like to win no matter what I'm in, but I'm truely not that competitive of a person most of the time. As long as I'm enjoying what I'm doing, then I'm going to keep doing it, so that might be where my mind set is coming from then.
The sponsership end of it is definitly a problem facing teams trying to make a full national series, even just a club level at their most local events. It's obvious why alsmot all of the top teams run Subarus, Subaru is there with the money, even if it's not much. If my choices were down to Mitsu, Subaru, Citroen, Ford whoever, I would go Suby simply because any way to help pay the budget is a way to help pay the budget. As for driving something else, yes, as long as it's in the spotlight they're happy. The problem with that is it's hard to find the spotlight right now. It's almost a catch 22 to get a big sponser. To find the spotlight, you still need to run well. To run well you need money. Just like any business you need to spend money to make money. Right now though it doesn't look like there's to many people at the end of the tunnel willing to give you money for your hard work, making it much harder to justify spending the money in the first place. Hopefully that will change, the fans will come, and the sponsers will notice.
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
ryanrlamothe
Moderator
Moderator
| Posts: 221 | |
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/14 15:58
Benjamin Klooster Slocum wrote:
AWD is definitly fun. FWD is fun if you do it right. RWD, now that's fun if all you plan on doing is having fun. I could get my 240 to rotate almost all the time (even straight, which was fun, if not what I had planned). Sure, slow as hell, but it was fun. If I were out for pure giggle factor, that's the way I'd go. Put the front in, a little more go peddle, and your throwing dirt at speccies. Granted, the most experience I have are with FWD and RWD, but when I was behind the wheel of a 2.5 for a bit I always felt like (and I've heard this from alot of other people to) it was less responsive than FWD, and alot harder to rotate than RWD. My only point of it is if your out for the sole fun factor, than just get a very cheap car, that will give you the most Giggles per $$. If you are out trying to make a business from it, or get as much sponsership as you can, then you'd pretty much be looking for AWD. Sure I'd like to win no matter what I'm in, but I'm truely not that competitive of a person most of the time. As long as I'm enjoying what I'm doing, then I'm going to keep doing it, so that might be where my mind set is coming from then.
That is my entire point. Fun is not defined by how shitty my driving experience is. Your definition and my definition of fun are apparently completely different. RWD definitely has its place, and given the right amount of perfectly smooth dry tarmac, RWD can be fun. But, when I want overall fun, there is no replacement for AWD.
I own a 2001 2.5RS and I hear things about the 2.5RS from people all of the time. And it is always from people who either do not drive one or do not know how to drive one. The initial understeer is due solely to the factory suspension setup, which is easily fixed. And the neutral to oversteer to neutral setup is absolutely fun. My 2.5RS is also at the minimum as responsive as FWD and in many cases much more. And when the path traveled is snowy, rainy, muddy, hilly, gravel, broken up, and anything else there is no replacement for AWD. When I finish my turbo build, at 2750lbs and AWD, it will be even more incredible. Hop into a Mitsubishi Evolution VIII MR or Subaru WRX STi sometime and see what you think.
Also, when you said a person would only drive AWD if they wanted to make a business out of it or wanted as much sponsorship as possible, that is not true whatsoever. Not everything in life is measured in dollar amounts. Money is a means to an end, not the definition of life. If something gives me immense amounts of enjoyment and happiness, there is no dollar amount for that.
I understand your point that if you can only afford to or only want to drive a FWD car in a Rally, try to find one which will reward you as equally as possible with how much you invest into it. That makes sense. But, when it comes to AWD cars, there is no amount of money that can ever make up for the amount of enjoyment I get from it. Therefore, it is more than just a business or sponsorship deal why I drive AWD.
Post edited by: ryanrlamothe, at: 2005/10/14 16:46
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
BenSlocum
Moderator
Moderator
| Posts: 63 | |
|
Re:LSPR - 2005/10/14 22:53
I think we actually agree completly on this subject, but we have different ways of saying it. The reason I'm going RWD for the fun factor as opposed to AWD is simply the budget aspect. Maintaning 2 wheel drive, weather front or rear, is inhearently cheaper than AWD considering the transfercase (suby's are built into the tranny, but for other aplications) and half shafts, u joints, and such. Giggles per dollar, RWD is the way to go in my mind, it might be wrong in your mind, but it's right in mine. As long as I'm happy in my own mind, no matter how screwed up it is, I'm happy. As long as your happy in your mind, no matter how screwed up it is to others (not me even, I see exaclty what you mean), you should be happy. If I only had x dollars to buy a car, and y dollars to maintane it, I would want to make sure it was the most fun I could get. As for RWD, I don't think anyone running a national series would go for that (although if in thiers and thier sponsers mind it works, more power to them). AWD seems logical. In other countries you'll see alot more 2 wheel drive running than AWD, but that's simply a geography thing (others agree with me on this one that I've talked to, if you see it as another reason let me know, I'm always open to new opinions). In the U.S. the country is big enough that the cost of running a full national series is pretty much relegated to your event budget. In other smaller countries you budget for the event itself (tow vehical fuel, lodging, food) would be alot less because you have less distance to travel, thus less time away from home. It would make sense in a budget aspect to be more apt to run a 2 wheel drive vehical for the national series then, versus the U.S. where most of your budget would have to go to the event itself, making it easier to justify spending more money on a better tuned AWD car. I should have said in that reply that that was my opinion, I'm sorry I didn't. As I said though, I'm more than open to other opinions, so if you have any other thoughts let me know, I want as much info on an issue before I make my mind up on it, and if my mind IS made up, the more info that can justify turning it the better. Honestly, what would happen if no one listened to anyone else and didn't change thier mind because of other thoughts on an issue? That might make us all Bush lovers (scary, I know).
|
|
|
The administrator has disabled public write access. |
|
Forums
